Further Light and Knowledge

This is what led to the break up with my ex. Neither of us, to my knowledge, actually had sex with someone else, but there were needs not being met in the relationship that absuutely could hav eled to an affair had we not dissolved the relationship.

I just recently read the posts about emotional infidelity on 8/27 but since it was an old (and perhaps mostly outdated?) original post, I just wanted to make another comment. After 27 years of blissful marriage to my husband, we have each given the other a "long leash" as they say to do whatever the other wants. I think when you have permission (well, without permission, there is always forgiveness...)to see anybody or talk to anyone you please, as long as your marriage is strong, has lots of laughter and love in it, one doesn't go looking for or fall into emotional infidelity. Some people do it as a hobby and lie about it, others just don't have time for it and still others are accused of it whether or not it really happens because of an insecure SO. Most people have affairs of the heart or body because they are not getting those needs met at home. Otherwise, it is just called friendship, family, etc. An insecure SO can make one RUN into infidelity, but so can one who imagines that this stuff is happening when it is really NOT. I have seen it both way up close and personal.



Don't worry, be happy.

Monogamy is such a naive and bullshit concept. People grow and change, and a committed couple's growth and change is not parralell. Why are we shocked when two people grow apart after 10 or more years of marriage? The bigger shock would be if they were still totally in harmony after that time.

Disney fairy tales end after the first kiss for a reason. Life after the intial begining of a relationship isn't fun or pleasant. But our legal traditions have made it pretty hard to get out of a relationship once you marry.

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I would be agnostic, but I have a commitment problem.

As each year sees me get a wee bit older, I have discovered that gravity and vanity effectively keep me monogamous.
It's interesting that I have outlived my need for obedience to the law of chastity vows to keep me from infidelity.

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Said in a hushed whisper: My temple name was (pause for effect) Joan.

The research on human behavior actually shows quite a range. I wouldn't say monogamy is bullshit. Rather, I'd say that monogamy works for some and not for others. Interestingly, the research also shows that it depends on the couple, the dynamics between the lovers, so an individual might want or need monogamy in one relationship but not in another. Further, it changes over time, so a couple can move in and out of monogamy as they need (if by monogamy we're meaning sexual exclusivity). That's why I'm a strong advocate of couples (or more) negotiating their own sexual/emotional rules and revisiting them regularly to meet each other's needs. The most common pattern worldwide is serial monogamy, with the average being three monogamous relationsihps in a lifetime.

Just some random thoughts:

I finally understand the attraction to monogamy, having recently married my former SO and agreeing to be monogamous with him before our wedding. We purposely omitted anything about being sexually exclusive in our vows since we felt like that was more suitably done in private, between the two of us. For us, it had no place in a public ceremony since it was our own, personal choice and path, so we made a "lover's vow" before we married. To me, that is just as binding, if not more so, than any public declaration.

For me, I never was really interested in being monogamous before in my life, but it was because I didn't feel that I was treated in a way that I felt that kind of loyalty was earned, if that makes sense. IOW, they could have a roving eye but I was supposed to sit home and bake bread, being thankful to have a P*hood holder in my life and in my bed. I was mostly mono (lol), but it was because I felt that "God" or LDS Inc. wanted it, so it must have been the right thing.

I do still think polyamory should be the norm of our society since the official support of monogamy over poly is somewhat hypocritical (imo) with the high rate of infidelity and divorce, not to mention the real sexual behavior of many adults in the US. If the stigma of the poly "lovestyle" were removed and understanding took the place of judgment, how much better would be the openness of it all, the new discussions that would take place, the enlightenments, the lessening of fear, many things. Having gone through what I did with the person to whom I was married, my SO, and us as a family together, I gained a perspective and an understanding that I truly value. I have no regrets.

You know, I actually have an easier time imagining having an open relationship than I do thinking about polyamory. I mean, I get it intellectually, but when I try to think about what intimacy would look like, my brain balks. Perhaps it's just my own desires for an intimate "one" (and for me and many gay men, that's not necessarily sexually exclusive) ... but polyamory makes my head hurt when I try to imagine what the intimacy would look like. I mean I have more than one close friends and family now...but more than one "primary" intimate relationship?

To be clear: there is no judgement behind what I'm saying. Only wonder.

Reading this over a couple days later, I think I *would* say that compulsory monogamy is bullshit. But it's absolutely fine if that's what works for any given couple.

I understand!

I found and read every book I could on polyamory when I first started having an interest in it. I even found an old, supposedly out of print book entitled (afair) "Group Marriage." One of the first ones I read was a "poly primer" that can still be found at many libraries, that included suggestions for documentation, legal forms, financial arrangements, etc. Unfortunately, there are only a handful of helpful books, devoid of judgment, available; I'm pretty sure I've read them all, even Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land, written way back in 1961 (wow, what a cool, eye-opening book for me to have found!).

For me, it took a reviewing of all I had ever been taught about what is "moral," what is "right," and what is "ethical," even. There can be morality, rightness, and ethics in many different living situations as long as the people decide what they want, are wanting it together and work towards it. The downside to poly that I could see was trying to balance your time and energy and have everyone feel included, loved, and special. That was the difficult part since life is how it is, and things don't always balance...just like with your kids. The sexuality of it seems to hang people up, but the emotional components are not much different than having 2 children you love, and trying to meet all of their needs, wants, but still having a unique relationship w/each of them, staying connected to them in a supportive position. Of course the adult relationships are not like parent/child, but I am only using that to illustrate that there can be jealousy, competitiveness, anger, scheming, etc., in a group of children with two parents, so it shouldn't surprise us when adults exhibit the same behaviors when the emotional or other needs are unaddressed/unmet. But I think the value of social support and validation to poly families cannot be underestimated, either. If the family does not feel alone, nor if they do not feel a need to "hide" their structure to anyone, but not have to explain it either, I believe that would go a long ways to helping them feel supported, understood and strengthened.

I haven't seen anyone succeed in having multiple primary relationships. There are a lot of people in polyland who view that as the ideal . . . who really dislike the idea of ranking their partners in importance. But from what I've seen, those people's relationships are short-lived. Instead of everyone being equally important, everyone turns out to be equally unimportant.

But I find that having a single primary partner, and then having one or two other partners who are clearly secondary, works quite well.

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"If my life is mine,
what shouldn’t I do?"

--"Help, I'm Alive", Metric

What you talk about, SPM, is what most of the books I read recommended. It seems to help when there are clearly drawn lines in the poly household.

Just to clarify, we did start out with a primary and secondary in the relationship when we moved in together. What adding that second person did, however, was to bring dormant issues up to the surface, and traits of the primary male, into more clear focus for me to see; they were things that I hadn't wanted to see before that were painful for me to look at and acknowledge, since doing that meant the end of our path together on a conscious level.

With time passing, he became more secretive, reclusive, and almost had an entire separate life from us in the end. Because of his choices (and we tried to include him in things, but he balked and seemed to have other things he wanted to do), the dynamics shifted in time to where I was closer to my SO, and we were more of a couple, than the now-former husband and I. I feel like he abdicated his position and almost used the living arrangement to have the marriage end, instead of being upfront about his feelings and asking for what he wanted/needed. But what I feel now happened is that the marriage was headed for its ending long before any of the other actions took place, due to many factors (one was leaving the LDS church, which had a devastating effect on the marriage just by itself) and that things happened exactly as they were supposed to happen.

This jibes with my experience as well. I have known two hetero poly groups, and they both ultimately dissolved because of that dynamic; same with the one gay poly group i knew. Interestingly, I've also known of a couple of groups that had bi members, and those seemed to work. I don't know if that's just coincidence.

Conversely, I know a LOT of gay male couples who are primary to each other, but have various rules about how, when, and with whom they can have casual NSA sex outside of the relationship. Most of them work pretty well, but I have known a few who have crumbled when one of the partners falls in love with someone else.

In one really sad case (to me) a couple who had been together since college, one of them hooked up with a guy (fine in their relationship) and fell for him, two months later, he left his partner of almost 20 years for the new guy; that new relationship fell apart after a few months (I think the new guy couldn't stand the idea that he had broken them up); the errant partner tried to go back to his ex, who in the meantime had been diagnosed with terminal melanoma and said "no". He died about a month later. I don't think there's a moral to this story. But it's too much like a telenovella not to tell it!! [In real life, though, it was tragic and sad, broken hearts all around; and the most uncomfortable funeral I've ever been to.)

My family is quite successful at this. I live in a quad relationship. We all live and raise kids together. I consider both my wife and my other partner as primary, and have had biological children with them both. We all have outside relationships as well.

It isn't always easy and sometimes feeling can get complicated, but we're all committed to each other and we work things out. We're all pretty happy. Been together for over 2 years now and I really don't see it going south any time soon. I give us a 60-40 chance of making it.

Monogamy is so ingrained in our culture, I understand why people find this lifestyle hard to understand. The truth is that I don't think I could ever go back to living the way I used to. There are so many rules about when it is appropriate to talk to whom, and how close people are allowed to get to each other, it amazes me that I used to live that way. Now days the only person who sets the rules for how I act toward another person are me and that other person. Not only has it opened up the amount of sexually intimate relationships I have, it has also made my friendships with others much richer. I'm always allowed to be myself, with everyone. It's very liberating.

EDIT: So getting back to the OP, I think a good way of affair-proofing your marriage is to completely get rid of the idea of an 'affair'. Can't break a rule that doesn't exist.

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“I was never aware of any other option but to question everything.”
― Chomsky

I live in California where some households have "threesomes" where each person is primary to two other people, but I'm interested in what you're describing. Could you explain a little more about the quad relationship? Do you mean that you live with four other women ( or four other men if you are LGBTQ , two of whom you consider primary, and two other non-primary, plus outside relationships with other women ? Or do you mean that four men and four women live in your home, all of whom have designated two others as primary relationships and the others as secondary, plus outside relationships. I'm interested in the psycho-social aspects of the family unit.

A few questions ( and of course, you are free not to answer in the interest of family privacy) :Would you say that some partners are LGBTQ and others are straight? Or, is everyone in the quad straight? ( not that it matters, just wondering how the dynamics change) . For example, you were saying that you all have outside relationships... what happens if a woman decides that she has become emotionally attached to an outside relationship and wants to promote him ( or her) to be her primary love interest and spend less time with the man she used to consider her primary relationship?

Sometimes on the FMH board, they chat with a woman from Colorado City whose group broke away from Warren Jeffs' group, and they are democratic about some things. However, the family unit still consists of one man who "presides", but must ask his primary wife before bringing another sister-wife into the home.

On governance: Do you choose a man or woman to "preside", or is it a more egalitarian kind of governance? Do the other men consider themselves to be brother-husbands or sister-wives and divide duties of cooking for all, or cleaning for all, or does each parent do the chores for his particular living space and children? Thank you,

I am happy to hear that you are doing this successfully, BI. I read about a polyfi quad on the 'net before my I met my SO. It is an unusual arrangement to hear about, much less see irl. I cannot imagine an open quad arrangement, but I admire all of you for doing it with good intentions. I wish you all the best success and happiness.

For me it's now about where I want to put my energy and focus, plus the wishes of my now-husband who was my SO. I try not to label or judge anyone, least of all myself, but each couple (or more) would do well, imo, to work out all the agreements, expectations, boundaries, etc., that they want for their dyad or group. That process is a good one, no matter if we are talking about 2 people or 16. I will, for the sake of brevity, simply agree to disagree with you on that last statement.