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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:45 pm 
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This is a very interesting piece by an English philospher transplanted to New York City.

Reading it, it actually reminds me of some of the reasons why I used to love Mormonism. He concludes the piece thus:

Quote:
I see Joseph Smith’s apostasy as strong poetry, a gloriously presumptive and delusional creation from the same climate as Whitman, if not enjoying quite the same air quality. Perhaps Mormonism is not so far from romanticism after all. To claim that it is simply Christian is to fail to grasp its theological, poetic and political audacity. It is much more than mere Christianity. Why are Mormons so keen to conceal their pearl of the greatest price? Why is no one really talking about this? In the context of you-know-who’s presidential bid, people appear to be endlessly talking about Mormonism, but its true theological challenge is entirely absent from the discussion.


Well, calling GBH.... we don't know that we teach that. (I love how he keeps calling Romney "You-Know-Who." It's so Voldemortian.)

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:49 pm 
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Oh, I missed a correction at the end - also interesting:


Quote:
An earlier version of this essay referred imprecisely to a doctrine of Mormon theology. While the doctrine holds that some humans might eventually become gods, it does not hold that specific individuals, like the church prophets Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, have attained godhood. (In recent years, church leaders have not emphasized the doctrine.)The essay also misstated one word of the Mormons' ninth Article of Faith. The article states that “We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God" — not "great and important themes."

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:55 pm 
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echo

echo

echo


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:45 pm 
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cumom wrote:
echo

echo

echo


LOL

LOL

LOL

:)

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:17 pm 
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That "correction" is bogus. It is Mormon doctrine that Joseph Smith has attained godhood. Why would they retract that?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:47 pm 
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I imagine it's the author who's retracting his own misunderstanding. At least that's how I read it. What I found interesting was the comment about how "in recent years church leaders haven't emphasized the doctrine" of eternal progression itself - not an idea that specific people are already gods.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:41 am 
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Equality wrote:
That "correction" is bogus. It is Mormon doctrine that Joseph Smith has attained godhood. Why would they retract that?


Where is this stated?

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:54 pm 
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Bearded Infidel wrote:
Equality wrote:
That "correction" is bogus. It is Mormon doctrine that Joseph Smith has attained godhood. Why would they retract that?


Where is this stated?

Praise to the Man probably comes closest for most modern Mormons:
Quote:
Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven,
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain,
Mingling with Gods he can plan for his brethren,
Death cannot conquer the hero again.

There is plausible deniability here for most Mormons, but the lyrics were written just after Joseph Smith was killed. Did people at that time think he had ascended to godhood? Brigham Young certainly did:
Quote:
Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the vail in the great work of the last days. I can tell our beloved brother Christians who have slain the Prophets and butchered and otherwise caused the death of thousands of Latter-day Saints, the priests who have thanked God in their prayers and thanksgiving from the pulpit that we have been plundered, driven, and slain, and the deacons under the pulpit, and their brethren and sisters in their closets, who have thanked God, thinking that the Latter-day Saints were wasted away, something that no doubt will mortify them—something that, to say the least, is a matter of deep regret to them—namely, that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation—the keys to rule in the spirit-world; and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh, and was a martyr to his religion and to the name of Christ, which gives him a most perfect victory in the spirit-world. He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim—"Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!" But it is true. (JOD 7:288-9.)


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:31 pm 
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Thanks, Ep. That BY quote is the one I was thinking of. But I am almost certain that if we dug into the JoD or journals of 19th-century church leaders, we wold find more references to Joseph achieving godhood. Here is a question for Mormons: if Joseph Smith has not been exalted, what is his current status in eternity?

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:39 pm 
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I was raised in a 1970s Mormonism where it was simply assumed that Joseph Smith had already received his godhood. It was weird to see someone question it, reminding me of how much Mormonism has changed over the past 50 years or so (although I'm not sure why BI asked the question).


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:15 am 
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I thought I knew the answer to this but got confused very quickly. I don't really remember being taught JS has already attained godhood, it's a little vague. My first thought was that he hadn't, because he hasn't been resurrected yet. I think I remember dudes like Abraham were already gods, because those who lived before Jesus were resurrected with him. Everyone who lived after Jesus died would have to wait until the next resurrection, which is before the millenium.

But then I got to thinking, what does it mean for all you guys who were promised you'd be among those to come forward on the morning of the first resurrection? I always got confused with that shit, and now that I don't go to my weekly indoctrination session it's even more confusing. Who really gives a fuck, it's all folk doctrine anyway isn't it.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:40 am 
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junesu wrote:
... I don't really remember being taught JS has already attained godhood, it's a little vague. My first thought was that he hadn't, because he hasn't been resurrected yet. I think I remember dudes like Abraham were already gods....


My understanding growing up was that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were already exalted and out there peopling even MORE planets, only this time with their spirit children.

I don't remember being taught that JS or BY or any of those guys were actually gods - just that they were still basically running things, church-wise, from beyond the veil.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:52 pm 
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cumom wrote:
I was raised in a 1970s Mormonism where it was simply assumed that Joseph Smith had already received his godhood. It was weird to see someone question it, reminding me of how much Mormonism has changed over the past 50 years or so (although I'm not sure why BI asked the question).


I've heard this but never read it. I was just curious if someone could point to a documented instance where a mormon prophet actually taught it. I don't find Praise to the Man all that convincing, but the JOD reference is.

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Last edited by Bearded Infidel on Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:53 pm 
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Double post...

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